High Agency

MO DHALIWAL

[00:00:00] Welcome to High Agency, where we ignite conversations that drive change and spark momentum towards transformative action and professional mastery.  When we think of leadership, we often think of people that are inspiring and guiding others towards some shared goals.  Leadership manifests in both the intimate moments of our daily lives and the sweeping changes on a grander scale.  To lead is to navigate a web of complexities, to respond to societal shifts, and to nurture sustainable movements for change.  When we examine leadership, we find a dance between the subtle everyday actions and the broader, more impactful transformations.  So whether we're tackling local community challenges or influencing national policies, true leadership requires a keen grasp of both ground realities and the wider, socio-economic, and political forces at play.  In politics, leadership transcends mere governance.  It's about crafting and nurturing movements capable of driving enduring, lasting change.  This involves more than setting a vision and strategy.  It means empowering people to become active participants in the journey.  So political leaders must be skilled at recognizing and responding to shifts within their communities, such as, as demographic or social issues, while also guiding the potentially sweeping transformations that shape a nation's future.  Balancing these dual focuses cultivates resilient movements that can adapt to ever-evolving challenges and opportunities.  So today, we have the privilege of engaging in a conversation with Jagmeet Singh, the federal leader of Canada's New Democratic Party.  Jagmeet's leadership journey exemplifies the power of marrying grassroots activism, activism with a strategic political vision.  Since stepping into his role as NDP leader, he's championed issues like housing, healthcare, social justice, striving to build a more inclusive and equitable Canada.  His talent for connecting with diverse communities and forming coalitions has been crucial in advancing the party's goals and making a tangible impact on Canadian society.  So as we explore themes of leadership, micro and macro shifts, and the creation of movements for change, we'll explore Jagmeet's experiences and insights and how a party leader balances the immediate needs with his party's long-term objectives.  What strategies does he use to foster grassroots engagement and drive systemic change?  And how does he see the future of political leadership in Canada amidst a rapidly changing social and political landscape?  So let's look at the nuances of leading through change and the pivotal role of leadership in crafting a better tomorrow.  Welcome, Jagmeet Singh.  Thanks so much.  So first of all, thanks for coming on High Agency.  Before we begin, High Agency, are you familiar with the phrase?  What does it mean to you?  Have you heard of this before?  Sounds like a very Mo phrase.

JAGMEET SINGH

[00:03:13] But I feel like you should break it down for me.  I should break it down for you?  Yeah, yeah.  A little bit.  I think I understand agency and then high agency, a lot of it, but I feel like I would benefit from hearing your thoughts on it.

MO DHALIWAL

[00:03:26] So the idea of being high agency is to be able to be a leader in a country where there's a lot of change happening.  And I think that's what's so important about being high agency is that you're not at the effect of the world or your circumstances or the environment around you, but that you feel that you can shape your own destiny and shape the world around you, that you are the creator of your destiny.

JAGMEET SINGH

[00:03:40] Yeah, yeah, absolutely.  And ideally, I want to inspire agency in each of my teammates, like each of the people that are part of my movement.  So I'm not having to call the shots as much as inspire people to do what they do best and what they're good at.  And really trust my team to give them that agency, the decision-making ability to say, hey, you can actually help shape where we're going and you can manage the project that you're working on.  I really believe in that.

MO DHALIWAL

[00:04:09] So that's your leadership today.  And it starts with the agent, right?  And the first agent was you.  That's right.  So let's start with you a little bit.  You were trained as a lawyer.  You grew up in Eastern Canada.  That's right.  Born in Toronto.  In Toronto.  And then at the Newfoundland Library.  Newfoundland and Labrador.  Newfoundland and Labrador.  And then back in Windsor, Ontario.  Is that right?  That's right.

JAGMEET SINGH

[00:04:31] Actually, even in Newfoundland and Labrador, I lived in St. John's, which is like the big city, not a huge city in the scheme of cities.  And then I lived in a smaller town called Grand Falls for about half a year.  And I remember that most distinctly because I was oldest at that point and we were about to leave.  So I have lots of memories of Grand Falls, which is a very quaint and beautiful little town.  And I remember that I was in the town on the island of Newfoundland in Newfoundland and Labrador.  And then what drew you to law initially?  It was a little arbitrary, going to law.  I would say I had a ...  My mom instilled in me and my dad as well, instilled in me some values around fighting for justice, caring about the people around me.  And a part of my own life experience is having faced some unfairness, faced some struggles, all those primed me to care about the injustice around me.  So when I got into law, it fit well.  It made sense to use the power of law to protect and defend people from being exploited or taken advantage of or defend their rights.  So that all made sense.  But I decided to go into law very arbitrarily.  I had taken a lot of science courses in undergrad and I had in my mind imagined that I was going to go down the path of my dad, who's a doctor.  So that was the path I wanted to go.  I really cared about health and healing and supporting people in that journey.  That felt good to me, made a lot of sense.  But I was in a course, a philosophy of law course, one of my electives, despite being a science major, I had these electives.  And my philosophy of law professor basically on a whim said, you're really good at this course.  Have you considered applying for law school?  I said, not at all.  I'm a major in biology.  I was considering doing a minor or a second degree in computer science.  No thought towards any professional or grad school that had anything to do with something non-science related.  So it wasn't what I was imagining.  But on a whim, I remember on a Halloween where there's lots of kids that were getting ready for Halloween parties.  And I enjoy Halloween, quite fun time of year.  I did not go to any of the Halloween parties and instead worked on my application last minute.  And then drove it in.  This is a little pre-emailing your applications, online applications.  So I drove my application in to Guelph, Ontario, which was the center for receiving applications in Ontario.  And just thought, we'll see what happens.  Wow.  And that started your journey.

MO DHALIWAL

[00:07:11] Yeah.  So from law, you practiced as a criminal defense attorney for a while.  And then later on, you went into law school.  And then later on, you decided to enter politics.  But I guess what I'm trying to figure out is, you're a party leader today.  And what are the confluence of events?  What are the things that happened that led to that?  You know that Steve Jobs thing of you can connect the dots looking backwards?  So there was your time as an MPP.  There was the time you spent as a criminal defense attorney.  And there was a time even before that where you were an activist in university.  And now looking back, it all kind of makes sense.  It almost seems like, well, of course.  Of course you would do these things.  But was any of this intentional in university as far as your political life is concerned?  How did your activism, how did your interaction with community, how did that lead to you even entering politics in the first place?

JAGMEET SINGH

[00:08:11] So I would tell at the top, it wasn't intentional.  None of it was something by design.  And part of when I speak to young people, I always say, be open to the opportunities that life presents.  Because you don't know where you'll end up.  And I had no real thought about politics as an end goal.  It wasn't something that I was planning for.  I didn’t have any of my family that was political around me that I could look at as an example.  I hadn’t volunteered in a political office.  I had voted.  And I believed in voting.  But I hadn’t been involved in a particular party or volunteered at an elected official’s office to have experienced a bit of what politics was like.  But I would say the string or kind of the thread that connects where I started and where I ended up would be a lifelong series of events that really, I said primed me for, but really prepared me for understanding the struggles of people around me.  I faced a lot of struggles myself.  And it made me more sensitive to the people around me.  So when I was a kid being bullied because I looked different.  I then noticed other kids were also being bullied because they looked different.  So I was more sensitive to that.  When my father was struggling with his own health issues and addiction, and it made life really precarious for a young kid kind of growing up around that.  And having someone you love then also be someone that you're afraid of.  Someone that's so kind and generous.  Also be someone that's scary and potentially violent.  Those things all made me then also nervous or sensitive to that in the people I met.  Other people that might be going through troubles at home.  Or people that might be facing other problems in their lives.  I was more kind of sensitive to it.  I felt their pain a bit more.  I could connect to it.  And so these things all made me more and more thinking about what it means to build a better world.  And then I would say my sick influence is that my mom always taught me this idea that we're all one.  So if you see people around you hurting, you're also hurting.  But if you help the people around you, you're also lifting everyone up.  You're lifting yourself up.  All those things combined for me to then want to get involved in my community in an activist sense.  How do we help the people that need help the most?  So I got involved in different organizations that were fighting for the rights of some of the most marginalized people.  So people that were refugees or new immigrants.  How to help out people that have fled desperate situations in their home country and come to Canada.  So how do we support them?  And then I got involved in Know Your Rights seminars.  Trying to help young people navigate the legal system.  People that were engaged in protests or activism often didn't know what their rights were when they were in those protests.  I was a legal observer at the G7 that happened in Toronto.  And I witnessed a lot of really unjust things happen to just peaceful protesters.  To random people that were just kind of caught up.  There was a practice called Kettling where police would surround kind of crowds and put them all together.  Even if you just kind of wanted to pop out of your house and say, hey, what's going on?  People like that got caught up.  As well as peaceful protesters.  We should be supporting people's right to protest.  And so, it was one of the biggest violations of civic rights or human rights in Canada's history.  The recent history, in terms of people protesting.  Getting arrested for no reason.  Being held for sometimes days at a time.  So this was kind of a shaping moment for me.  Seeing all that.  All the firsthand experiences.  Yeah, yeah.  I was there in downtown Toronto, seeing people get arrested.  I was a legal observer.  So it was my job to do that.  So, seeing the injustice around me.  Caring about it.  Feeling that I'm connected to people.  Being sensitive to it.  And then wanting to do something about it.  So, that's how I started getting involved.  And then there's different community groups that were doing work.  And I joined with them.  And then my brother and his really good friend started a group that was engaging.  Young, racialized kids.  Particularly sick kids.  To get involved in giving back to their community.  And being more active.  And so all those things together set me up to want to get more and more involved.  And then finally I guess the way I made the jump into politics was the groups that I was working with.  Particularly this group of young, sick activists that were wanting to contribute to the community.  Wanting to fight for more fairness.  Wanting to fight for justice.  They turned around and said, 'Hey, we want you to get involved in politics.'  And particularly my brother and another friend, Amnit Singh, both said, 'You got to do it.'  And I resisted it.  I didn't want to do it.  So it wasn't your idea.  It was not at all.  It was a lot of arm twisting.  A lot of tail tripping.

MO DHALIWAL

[00:13:01] Why the arm twisting?  Because if you're trying to create this change, I think many times politicians will enter the arena talking about changing the system.  Creating change.  Representing their communities.  So one, why the resistance to it?  And secondly, didn't you see it as an opportunity to create change then?

JAGMEET SINGH

[00:13:22] Well, one, I didn't imagine myself as a politician.  So I couldn’t really picture it.  Maybe I hadn’t seen anyone that I could relate to that looked like me maybe.  I just didn’t see myself in that role.  And I was really cynical about politics and politicians.  In some of the work I was doing, I remember meeting with a politician about an issue impacting a human rights concern.  And I was like, okay.  I was left with this elected official who was supposed to represent, was marginalized himself, representing a marginalized community.  And he had no interest in what the community was concerned about.  Only wanted to see if there was some personal benefit for him or only cared about a political advantage.  Had no real, none of the arguments were compelling to him.  None of the arguments that the community members were making.  And I was kind of attending as a legal advisor.  For the community.  For the community.  And I took folks to the side after I said, it's clear that this individual is not going to do anything that you want.  With all the arguments you presented, the reason why it's the right thing to do, the reason why it's the moral or ethical or human rights supporting action, he's not going to do it.  The only way this is going to get done is if we fight it out in court or bring a legal challenge.  It's not going to happen.  Unless there's some immense political pressure put on him.  Because it's clear he's not being convinced by the moral arguments.  So I was quite cynical about politics and politicians.  I thought I wanted to be in a role where we push government to take action.  And I didn't want to be a part of a system that I thought was not really interested in what people were concerned about or what people needed.

MO DHALIWAL

[00:15:02] So I can definitely see how that would light a fire inside someone.  But after the arm twisting by your brother.  And this group of activists.  At some point, the arm twisting was obviously successful.

JAGMEET SINGH

[00:15:14] Yes.

MO DHALIWAL

[00:15:15] So what was a pivotal moment?  What caused you to say, actually, I'm not going to be cynical.

JAGMEET SINGH

[00:15:20] And let's try to do something on this from the inside.  I give a lot of credit.  So I'll say specifically, two people were pivotal in this.  It would be my brother, Gareth Nseng, and a really close friend, Amneed Singh.  They both really took it on themselves to convince me.  And they kind of took a tact where one would compliment me and say, 'Oh, this would be a good thing.  This would be a good fit.'  And the other would kind of take a tact of using almost like a guilt trip approach to get me to do it.

MO DHALIWAL

[00:15:48] They decided who was going to be good cop and bad cop?

JAGMEET SINGH

[00:15:51] Yeah, yeah, yeah.  I didn't want to use that analogy.  But yeah, I think it was a good cop, bad cop analogy.  Exactly.  That's what it was.  And so, but what convinced me, I'd say, were a couple of things.  One, Amneed really pointed out the example of Jack Layton as someone to respond to my belief and feeling that politicians and politics were very cynical.  And they said, what about Jack Layton?  And Jack Layton was someone I think a lot of folks felt inspired by.  I also was inspired by.  He showed up to community group events in a really meaningful way.  He showed up when there were events organized by you.  One would think not particularly large groups or issues that weren't as closely monitored by maybe mainstream politics.  But he still showed up.  And one of the events he showed up to was a community event where Sikhs were grieving and commemorating the 1984 Sikh genocide.  And he came and was really supportive.  And so that was meaningful, in addition to his overall demeanor, which came across as someone who authentically cared about people and was committed to trying to make a change in people's lives.  So he was someone that I was inspired by and thought, OK, that is an example of someone that I think is important.  And I think it really counters the feeling of cynicism in politics.  I'm like, yeah, I agree with that.  And my brother leaned into the idea that something we were taught as kids or something my mom really leaned into was this idea that we shouldn't just survive.  We should thrive.  And a lot of new immigrants are coming to Canada and just thinking about survival.  Their goal is, how do I support my family?  We've left a really difficult situation, hoping to build a better life.  And so their goal is survival.

MO DHALIWAL

[00:17:42] And that's always that first generation.  The first generation.  That are resigned to the fact that we're here to survive and hold on long enough such that a subsequent generation might be the ones to thrive.

JAGMEET SINGH

[00:17:53] Yes.  Yes.  And so we were supposed to be that generation that would then thrive.  But the definition of thriving, with what we were taught at the time, was that we were taught as kids was that thriving is not only doing well yourself, but giving back to the community around you.  If you really believe we're all connected, we're all one, then you can't really thrive unless you're contributing back to the betterment of all people.  So my brother leaned into this idea that you, I was a young lawyer, successful, doing well.  He said, 'That's not really thriving because you're not giving back enough.'  Well, I'm doing lots of volunteer work.  No, it's not good enough.  You really have to contribute more.

SPEAKER_3

[00:18:34] Mm-hmm.

JAGMEET SINGH

[00:18:35] And so he believed in me doing a lot more than just volunteering on weekends.  He wanted me to commit more of my life towards this idea of the collective betterment, this sick concept of, that you wish betterment not just for one community or one group.  You want the betterment of all humanity, or all everyone, not just humanity, but the world.  You want the betterment for the world.  And that was really compelling.  And then I thought about the fact that I could represent a lot of people.  I had experienced a lot of pain and struggle.  And I could relate to a lot of people's pain and struggle.  And so I could be a good voice for people that way.  So all that finally convinced me, mm-hmm.

MO DHALIWAL

[00:19:15] And then you made the jump and said, OK, I'm going to run for a seat.  That's right.  And that's when you became MPP?

JAGMEET SINGH

[00:19:22] That's right.  So I started off actually running in a federal election.  And I lost my first election.  So I ran as a member of parliament in a riding that had never voted or elected; a new Democrat had voted, but they'd never elected a new Democrat.  So no one from my party at any level, not just the riding I ran in, but the entire region.  So the surrounding over a million population community of three different cities had never voted in a new Democrat ever.  And so as a team, we chose to run in one of those ridings.  And at the end of that election, I ran under Jack Layton's banner.  We came within less than a percent or two of winning for the first try.  So it was a really close election.  And then we ran again a year later in the provincial election.

MO DHALIWAL

[00:20:16] It's interesting to look back and think about how that might have changed your trajectory to have been involved in federal politics at that point.

JAGMEET SINGH

[00:20:22] Right.  We were thinking about that.  I think this is a good example of how things happen for a reason, because I could have won.  I was very close.  Within a percent or two.  The next election was the big liberal wave.  So then would I have survived that wave or not?  Who knows?  But I, in the provincial level, really built up a lot of community support because I worked on issues that mattered directly to the community.  And it's hard to work on those issues sometimes federally.  As a federal leader, I can.  But as a local individual member of parliament, it's a bit harder.  But provincially, I felt that I found issues that mattered to the people that I wanted to vote for.

MO DHALIWAL

[00:21:03] You were able to make a more direct impact.

JAGMEET SINGH

[00:21:05] I was able to make a more direct impact, speak to people on issues that mattered really in their day-to-day lives and issues of injustice that were really serious and spoke to me.  There was auto insurance companies, which are very powerful, very large, very wealthy, and they were exploiting lower-income communities and particularly racialized communities.  So I was able to expose that, point that out, and voice a lot of frustration for people and try to push for some changes.  There were these kinds of job agencies that were also exploiting people's labor, and we were able to raise awareness about that.  I took on a practice where police were arbitrarily stopping people because of the color of skin, mostly black, indigenous, and racialized people.  A practice in Toronto known as carding, very prolific.  And we were actually able to get that practice significantly reduced, almost stopped because of our work and the work of a lot of activists.  But yeah, there's a lot of meaningful things.  There's a lot of things that we're able to do as a team.

MO DHALIWAL

[00:22:03] And that was just as your time as an MPP operating at the provincial level.  Yeah.  And how long were you an MPP?

JAGMEET SINGH

[00:22:09] Almost seven years. Okay.  Yeah.

MO DHALIWAL

[00:22:12] And then a time came that there was now an opportunity to run for federal leadership of the NDP.  So taking back to that period, I'm really interested to hear as a provincial MPP, where you're not the leader of the provincial party by any means.  That's right.  You're not deputy leader or anything like that.  So how do you make the decision at that point to jump from being a provincial MPP that's making significant impact in his local community to say, actually, I think I can slingshot and be a federal leader of that party?

JAGMEET SINGH

[00:22:47] Yeah, it's not a common step.  But actually, one of the stepping stones, and I give credit to the leader of the provincial New Democrats at the time, Andrea Horvath, she actually made me deputy leader.  Oh, she did?  Okay.  Near the end of my time there, which kind of got me in a bit of a spotlight as a potential leader.  That got you some profile?  It got me some profile and also some attention.  I was working hard to not just re-elect myself, but I really wanted to elect more New Democrats in the surrounding region.  So while I was the first to win in Brampton, eventually, we laid the foundation to win three seats in that region.  So it was a big growth there.  And I was really working on how do we grow the party.  So she made me deputy leader.  Honestly, what happened was there was an article that came out, and I don't know who was behind it and who encouraged the writer of this article to include these names.  Some of the names make a lot of sense.  But in the list of potential names for who could be the next leader of the federal NDP, there were federal MPs, which were named, which I think makes a lot of sense.  Some of them were previous federal leadership candidates.  So that obviously makes a lot of sense.  And randomly in that list of names was my name.  And when I saw that, I said, I kind of know where that's coming from.  I had never hinted at any interest in this.  I had never even mused about it.  All right.

MO DHALIWAL

[00:24:19] So by your own admission, there was a bunch of names that made sense.  And you're saying that your name was one of those that didn't make sense.

JAGMEET SINGH

[00:24:26] Yeah.  I think I was probably the only name on there that everything else had some sort of real federal connection.  And then there was my name as a provincial.  I mean, I guess I was elected, which somewhat made some sense.  But I never suggested ever that I was interested in any leadership, let alone federal leadership.  I guess there could have been a thought that if I was deputy leader, at one point I would pursue if there was an opportunity provincially.  That would have made sense.  Maybe if there was an article about who might be the next provincial leader.  But I'd always said I was loyal to my leader at the time.  It was Andrea.  So, yeah, it was a bit of a surprise.  And I remember folks asked me about the story and said, what's your interest?  I'm not interested.  And so, well, maybe you should just let them know you're not interested and then you could end the story.  And I said, yeah, I can totally do that because I'm not planning on it.  But a lot of folks around me again, encourage you to say, well, maybe just consider it.  Maybe there's something here.  Maybe folks want you to do it.  Let's hear what people have to say.  And so I give a lot of credit to my team around me.  I really try to empower my team and support the people around me because I believe in the work we're doing.  I believe that we can build a better country and a better province at the time, provincially.  I really believed in that.  And I wanted to inspire my team that we have challenges.  There's things that people are struggling with.  There's things that we're fighting against.  It's so difficult.  But our work is also so important.  We have to continue to fight as hard as we can.  And we've got to feel that desire to make people's lives better.  That has to motivate everything we do.  So I was honored that my team, whom I've empowered in so many ways, also wanted me to consider this opportunity.  So I didn't want to turn them down right away.  These are the people that I've empowered.  And I've said, 'I want you to work hard towards this goal of building a better province at the time.'  And so they turned around and said, 'Well, we want you to consider this.'  If people are.  Maybe this is something people want you to do.  And maybe you should think about it.  So I, again, listened to my team and heard folks out.  And it took a while, I guess.  Again, similar story to becoming running for policy in the first place.  A lot of people reached out to then encourage me when they saw my name being kind of floated.  And folks thought that I had somehow floated my name.  And I said, no, I have no interest in this.  I'm only hearing from people.  And my team really wants me to be open to it.  But.  I, again, succumbed to the pressure of people around me that said, this is a good idea.  But I have to admit, I also came to the realization.  And I think you need to do this.  Sometimes people encourage you to think of something.  And then there's a moment where you say, well, what could I offer in this position?  And I, again, thought, I do believe that I have experienced certain struggles and challenges that make me able to relate, to the struggles that people are going through in a good way.  And I can be a voice for a lot of people.  And I felt always one of my beliefs and desires was to bring people together.  It might sound weird because you look at me, you think, on first glance, someone with a beard and a turban and brown skin would be someone that would divide people because of my appearance.  But my fundamental belief is in our oneness and our connection.  And so one of my goals is to find ways for us to come together as people, to find our commonalities, the things that they motivate all of us.  And most of us, most people want the same things.  Want to build a safe community.  Want to take care of their kids.  Want to take care of their parents.  Want to build a brighter future.  Want to take care of the folks around them.  Care about their neighbors.  Are worried about their neighbors not doing well.  And I believe these are fundamental values that that would motivate us to work together towards building a better world where we lift each other up and we all rise together.  So I was I was convinced after some time that that I was right.  That I could offer something special to the federal landscape.

MO DHALIWAL

[00:28:24] So it's actually the phenomenon, though, that's really interesting to me because the phenomenon is similar in both cases, which was that you weren't necessarily like you didn't enter an arena with some really specific expectation of how your career was supposed to go.  And so you showed up to perform in a particular fashion that was in alignment with your values.  But then you seemed quite open to opportunity.  Right.  So there's some alignment there between how you advise others, and the advice that you give.  Yes.  And how you're actually showing up yourself.  Because in both of those occasions, you were there doing your job, living life the way you thought it should be lived.  But you were obviously open to the opportunity.  And when it presented itself, sure, it might have taken some convincing.  But with that openness, you were actually able to entertain it fully and decide what to do about it.  Right.  Both in becoming an MPP initially and then later on for the leadership.  So when you actually made the jump and decided.  OK, I'm going to now put my name into the running for the federal leadership.  What was the experience of that? Right.  I'm not talking from a policy level because I think your record is quite clear as far as what you stand for, what the values of the party are.  But from an experience, you know, what do you experience in putting your name forward and then actually going through that campaign and arriving in that position?

JAGMEET SINGH

[00:29:44] In a lot of ways, it was a very, it was a very beautiful.  Almost magical experience because I was in a is in a point.  Sometimes there is moments where you need to rally your troops.  You really have to get people motivated to take on a big challenge.  And leaders have to do that.  And it's a very important part.  I remember when I was a kid, I was a captain of my soccer team and we were down and folks are kind of feeling like giving up.  And you got to rally that.  Like, listen, we got to give it our all.  Like there's still there's still time left.  It's on the clock.  We can't give up now.  You have to kind of push them.  In this case, people had tried so hard to convince me that throughout they were so driven, like the people around me, the volunteers, the people that are on my team.  They were so driven towards achieving this.  I was always so.  I was so humbled by how much people believed in me.  I was so honored by that.  It was such a special thing.  And then I also thought that it wasn't that they were just they believed in me.  They believed in what we had created.  The way we had built this team was, was a lot of young people.  And I always thought there's so much power in the youth.  And so our team was really young.  At one point, I was the oldest person on our leadership team.  I wasn't, I wasn't that old.  And so that was really special about it.  How much people want to see it happen.  People said it would mean so much to them.  I remember I went to two events on the same day.  One event was in Scarborough with Tamil community and Tamil community is, is predominantly Hindu in background.  And then I was in Mississauga at an event called Muslim Fest.  So, as the name speaks, majority Muslim folks.  I remember at both events separately, young men had come up to me, like two individuals at both events.  And they almost said the same thing, as if they had like phoned each other and they didn't know each other.  They were totally strangers.  But they came up to me.  I was a young Muslim man, not from the same language background as me, didn't look exactly like me; they said, 'You know, you're running for for being leader.'  I want to see you as leader because it would make me feel like I could, I could do more in my life.  Like it mattered to him to see me there, even though we weren't the same religious background, language background.  But he said it would matter to me to see you there.  It would make me feel like I could do more in my life.  I was really touched by that.  And then to hear that again from a young Muslim man.  Man who is different religion, again, different language background, different community background.  And he said the same thing, different words, but the same idea that I would be.  I would feel like it would make my life better.  It would make me feel better knowing that you're there.  And then I thought what we were a part of was bigger than me.  It was an idea that sometimes people need to see themselves reflected in these positions of power.  And so we all believe that there was something really special about what we were trying to do, to make people feel like they mattered, to make people feel like their voices mattered.  To make people who had gone through similar struggles.  And I was hearing more and more of these stories.  Like I've also, like someone came up to me and said they had heard me talk about my struggles as a kid growing up with a father struggling with addiction.  They said I've also gone through that.  And just people seeing commonalities and then seeing me as a person that could bring them together.  And as a kid, I always felt like I didn't belong.  I felt like I stood out in a bad way.  And that people would often, like I mentioned, I was bullied as a kid.  And made fun of for the way I looked.  And that same identity that I had as an adult was finding connections and bringing people together and making them inspired to see me as a leader.  And I felt like it was about people themselves feeling themselves reflected.  Like it was about people.  It was about the people that have not felt like they had a voice.  People that felt like they didn't matter.  All coming together to have something that represented that for them.  And that was a big part of what I wanted to achieve as a politician.  To make people feel like they mattered.  That their voices mattered.  Their experiences mattered.  That they should be unapologetic about who they are.  And that they could do that and contribute towards building a better country.  A better community.  So, I was really, that whole journey was something really special.  The people that I worked with.  The people that helped me with.  Different steps along the way.  Including how we came up with our campaign slogan.

MO DHALIWAL

[00:34:07] Which an interesting fellow was involved in that.  So it's interesting because what you're describing is something that's really important.  And that comes quite naturally to you.  And it's my first experience with your leadership style.  And this campaign and what you had created was actually in 2017.  Your leadership campaign at the time was just getting going.  And I was invited out to Ontario to join a very early strategy group.  To just start thinking about what this might look like.  And I remember joining that strategy meeting.  And actually having the experience of seeing many incredibly competent people running around so passionately for you.  And what was interesting to me was that was my first experience of this sort of movement.  That you have created or been a part of.  And so it might be something that comes naturally to you.  But the world that I come from, there's four styles of leadership that we might coach or talk about.  And they're all important and have pros and cons.  Depending on what they are.  Whether it's a really hands-off, laissez-faire type of leadership.  Whether it's a very authoritarian leadership style.  Or a democratic leadership style.  Or what yours sounds like, which is a visionary leadership style.  And it was my first time actually seeing that phenomenon live in front of me.  Because there were many people.  Some of whom had actually come from other jobs in politics.  And decided to give that up.  Even though that might have been a smarter quote unquote career move.  Or been a safer or more rational choice.  But they gave that up.  To align themselves with your campaign at the time in this movement.  And it was largely because they could see themselves in this.  They could see themselves in a different way of being represented in public life.  And so that visionary leadership style is something that you've leaned on quite a bit.  And in fact, in the work that we did at Skyrocket and working with you, it was seeing that visionary leadership style.  Seeing that way of convening people with strength but a lot of empathy, is what actually gave rise to the love and courage campaign.  Which was your slogan for the leadership.  But that visionary leadership style.  How would your team describe it?  And how would your team describe you as a leader today?  Because I mean you've been on the job for seven years now.  So definitely not a spring chicken.  If you don't mind me saying that.  So how in those seven years.  How has your leadership style evolved?  Because like I said.  Of those four leadership styles.  Each one of them has their own pros and cons.  And some of them are appropriate for different moments.  There are definitely periods of time where.  If the house is on fire, a visionary or democratic leadership sounds good.  But you really need authoritarian leadership.  Just running in, ordering people around, telling them where to go and what to do.  So, in those seven years, how has your leadership style evolved?  And how would your team describe your leadership today?

JAGMEET SINGH

[00:37:09] That's a great question.  I wish we could just ask my team to answer that.  I feel like the one thing I know is true - is that I really have a very strong personal relationship with all my all the folks that work in my leadership team.  And I care a lot about them.  And I want to take care of them.  And I feel like, I've been really honored to have people on my team that really give so much of themselves back.  Like, I care about them a lot.  And I want to support them.  And I want to see them thrive.  And whatever they do.  And I feel, everyone on my team gives so much back that way.  They give so much of themselves.  Like, they really believe in what we're doing.  They believe in me.  And I feel really humbled and honored by this.  But they just, when I say they give of themselves.  Like, they really pour themselves into the work.  They put themselves on the line.  Like people who literally throw themselves.  At problems.  Or put themselves in front of bullets for me.  Like it's.  It's really humbling.  And I feel like.  I hope that's because they know I care about them a lot.  And I take care of them as well.  And I.  I hope it's also because they believe in the work we're doing together.  So.  That that's something.  And I really believe in empowering people.  Like I'm not someone that wants to micromanage folks.  I really.  I trust my team to do.  What they're doing.  And.  I like to give direction.  I like to make decisions if I need to.  But I really hear input from my team.  Like I'll hear them out really. Thoughtfully.  I feel like people know that their voices matter.  Their thoughts matter.  Their ideas matter.  Their opinions matter.  To me.  And I'll reflect on it.  In a genuine way.  And if I make a decision that they don't always agree with.  They'll still know that I took the time to really hear them out first.  But.  Yeah.  I would say that.  They would say that I'm.  I.  I trust them.  I support them.  And then they really.  Give a lot of themselves in return.

MO DHALIWAL

[00:38:57] So when you.  Enter this role of leadership though.  It's not like.  You were.  An entrepreneur.  Starting something from scratch. Yeah.  And able to kind of build a culture or value system process from scratch around yourself, That's.  I don't want to call it a luxury because it's a tough job as well.  But that is a bit of a luxury.  I'd say that.  Or at least a freedom and flexibility that a lot of entrepreneurs have.  Right.  Which is.  When they're going after something.  When they're going after a mission.  They're able to.  Starting from scratch.  Starting from scratch.  And able to align.  Culture.  Resources.  Everything.  With such focus towards a very particular outcome.  And.  You entered a situation where there's a pre-existing culture.  Right.  I don't think anybody would say that you haven't impacted that significantly.  But there was a pre-existing culture.  Of course.  There's a pre-existing bureaucracy, processes in place.  And sometimes that can create a lot of inertia towards change.  Right.  It doesn't matter how visionary a person is or how laudable your goals might be.  But there's a pre-existing situation here.  So what was your experience of entering this sort of pre-existing machinery?  And I don't just refer to the NDP.  But in fact, government and politics at that level.  How do you enter an arena like that?  That has so much of its own culture.  It's got its own inertia.  How do you enter that and negotiate the change that you're trying to create?

JAGMEET SINGH

[00:40:25] I feel like this is this.  It is.  It is similar to.  Like it's an organization.  It's.  It's.  It kind of functions like a company in some ways.  Like we have.  We.  Instead of a product that we're fighting to make people's lives better.  We're fighting to change.  The challenges that people are going through.  Like change things to make them better.  So.  And like any.  Existing.  Organization.  I come in.  I'll inherit.  The folks that are there.  And the culture that's there.  So there is.  There's work that requires changing it.  It.  It is just that.  It's just work.  It takes work.  There is. Absolutely inertia.  Because we're going to do something differently.  There'll, there'll be some adjustment.  I feel like, in some ways.  Political parties are a little bit; they're ready for that.  Because there are; it is a part of; it is a; it is a normal course of action.  There will be a new leader, and the new leader will bring in a different vision and different priorities.  So, there is some kind of people who are prepared for it.  But there's some things that are really resistant to it, like governments in general, particularly at the federal level, and the federal government; have only been conservative and liberal, and so.  Those two have really set the stage.  And, and baked in a lot of unfairness.  In the way things are.  And, and so we're up against a real big challenge.  When we want to change things.  And rewrite.  Change the rules.  To make them better for people.  Because they've been written in a way that's really advantageous to a certain group.  And it's, it's really clear.  So I'd say on a political party structure.  There is inertia.  Because you're bringing in something new.  On institutional level.  We're trying to bring in change.  When there's been hundreds of years of laws written that benefit certain folks like.  There is a reason why, folks.  Are seeing record profits being made by corporate grocery stores.  And they can't afford their groceries at the other end of that.  There's a CEO that's making more money than he's ever made before.  And there's rules that have been written to allow these CEOs to have that power and that influence.  And, the cost of living: examples continue with your cell phone fees being some of the highest in the world.  And it's so hard to find a home.  These are rules that have been written by those in power, for the benefit of those in power.

MO DHALIWAL

[00:42:40] So, well, it's something so deeply entrenched and.  The delta between the scrappy activist, yes right, and now a federal party leader in a government, right, and government is you know, bureaucracy-wise, it's more corporate than corporate, right?  How do you bring about transformative impact or change there, yeah, yeah, I mean that's the question.

JAGMEET SINGH

[00:43:05] So, I'd say, so we, the first point is everything we do, we have a very clear vision around how do we use our power to make people's lives better and we have a very clear vision and everyone knows that that's our vision like the whole team knows we are here to use our power.  To make people's lives better, and it distinguishes ourselves from other folks that might use their power to get into power or might use their power to stay in power or use their power to help their friends.  Like there are lots of other goals, but we've got a very clear vision.  And I think being really clear-eyed and focused helps us overcome that inertia because we're really focused.  And some of the results are there.  We've transformed our healthcare system for the first time in a generation; it's never happened before.  There's been no expansion of our federal healthcare system.  Since it came in, There's only been erosions.  Losing support.  Losing funding.  Losing.  Investments.  It's kind of been.  Eroded over time.  The first time.  We've actually.  Expanded it.  That's a massive change.  And it took.  A real big effort.  It took.  A lot of fighting.  I had to fight.  Justin Trudeau.  And the liberals.  To get them.  To do the things.  That sometimes.  They promised to do.  But they were never.  Going to do anyways.  So.  I think.  We were.  Motivated.  I was motivated.  By.  By this.  Belief that.  I'm a caretaker.  I'm in.  Of.  Of this.  Beautiful movement.  I'm in this.  Movement.  For the time that I have.  And I want to use.  The time I have.  To do as much good as possible for people and I don't take anything for granted, I don't take my position for granted, I don't take the time or opportunity I have for granted to make people's lives better.  Having alignment of my team, knowing that we have limited time, we've got to fight as hard as you can every moment we can to get as much as we can out of the government.  I think that helps us.  And then I go back to my my belief when I was a kid and I heard people talk about a leader, the leader would say no, no, I'm I'm no leader, I'm just a sevadar, and a sevadar means one who serves.  And I really believe in that concept, that I'm a servant leader.  Yeah, I'm serving, I'm not a boss, I'm a servant.  And.  And I'm.  And even if you think about it, when someone's like a really important leader, they would say 'I'm the mukh sevadar, which is like the main servant.  So really, leadership to me is to serve.  And I think that is a big reason why we've been able to get things done because we believe in serving people and fighting for people, mm-hmm.  And that aligns with the history of the party as well, that's what previous leaders have done.  So I think there's a really powerful alignment.  Of the History of the party.  Having used its power.  To help people.  Be personally believing that.  My team being aligned.  Behind that.  And then.  We have now.  The evidence of.  The efforts.  That we put in.  The results are now.  In front of us.  That we've.  Been able to expand things.  A lot more is needed.  But 25.  Of these.  Really historic changes.  I give it.  I credit it.  To the great work.  Of our team.  And.  Our core belief.  That.  We're in this.  Role.  In politics.  To try to make a difference.  And we do everything.  We can.  To make that happen.

MO DHALIWAL

[00:46:23] So we spent.  Most of this conversation.  Talking about.  Your perspective. On leadership.  The impact of leadership in systems that you came to join at different points in your life.  If we were to look at it, we're thinking that we can't ever affect something without that thing affecting us as well.  So, how has your role in leadership changed you?  And are there places that you go to think about to inspire you, to reflect on your own leadership and how you show up for people?

JAGMEET SINGH

[00:47:01] Wow, yeah.  How I think a political leader as an activist would choose the issue that mattered the most to me and I would fight for that issue because it matters most to me as a leader.  I choose the issues.  About.  Most of the people.  That I.  That I represent.  That I serve.  So.  An example of that.  Is something.  That I.  Still care about.  And I think.  Is important.  Is.  is reforming our justice system, making sure it works better.  I was a lawyer before.  I saw the flaws in the justice system.  So it's still something I want to change and improve.  But when I go to people's doorsteps, the first thing people tell me is they care about the cost of their groceries.  I can't afford to buy my groceries.  I'm worried about my rent.  So that's what I have to focus on, where people are at.  So I think the difference between an activist.

MO DHALIWAL

[00:47:53] So that changed your orientation.

JAGMEET SINGH

[00:47:55] Changed the orientation.  That before, I would fight for what I believed in the most.  And as a leader, I have to fight.  I believe in this.  I fight for what matters most to the people that I'm serving.  And that's a very important, powerful thing.  And so then I focus on cost of living.  That's something that matters to most of the people that I want to serve.  And it's my job to be their servant.  And so that's what I'm focused on.  That's what I care about.  That's what I'm fighting for.  And I get it.  Because I remember when I was a kid, taking care of my kid brother, who was living with me when I was in university, working minimum wage jobs, and always worried about my kid brother going hungry and being afraid.  I thought I was going to let him down that way.  So I get when people are frustrated, they go to the grocery store, they can't buy what they need for their family.  I understand that frustration.  So I really channel that into why I went after Galen Weston so aggressively, why I'm going after Corporate Creed.  Because when companies are ripping off people and making record profits, people can't afford their groceries.  They can't afford to eat.  That is a problem.  So I take that on.  So that's one big shift.  I think that leadership has helped me really hone my ability to get where people are at and to fight for what people need.  And where I go to, I feel one of the things that if I could, it's hard to give yourself compliments, but the one thing that I'm proud of is that I very much believe in self-improvement and perpetual growth.  And so I will take feedback well from my team, from people that I respect, from people that I want to, I want to hear their opinion, hear their thoughts.  I take that and I use that to be better, to make a better decision.  To grow as a leader, to grow as a party.  I want us to be able to better serve the people that we want to fight for.  And so I take feedback really well.  And I try my best not to let my ego stop me from being willing to improve a position, to take feedback, and to try to put it into practice.

MO DHALIWAL

[00:49:53] Yeah, I can imagine growth mindset being critical for anybody that wants to create any sort of transformative change in the long term.  Because I think, especially with political winds shifting, there are people that, and I'm going to sound a little cynical here, that especially for political roles will sometimes be voted in based on some immediacy of something that they're promising.  But there isn't necessarily a sort of longitudinal view of, you know, how does that fit into an overall perspective, right?  What is your thesis for our society?  Such that some immediate issues can fit into that thesis.  And cultivating a growth mindset, I mean, that's critical.  And it's kind of inherent to entrepreneurship.  And that's one place I think that has a lot of overlap with a lot of other sectors is that entrepreneurship is inherent to that.  It's if you're going to be creating some new value in the world and there's some vision or mission that you have and you're attacking it with everything that you have, you're trying to learn and execute as quick as possible.  And so, growth mindset and that entrepreneurial thinking isn't something that we necessarily always associate with government because of the culture and the inertias that are present there.  But it's nice to hear that that's something that you've cultivated.  And hopefully you encourage that not only within your party or within people that you work with, but hopefully in the halls of power in general.  Because I think that's something that creates a lot of frustration with people when we look at roles, when we look at these institutions that actually wield so much social power, but it's quite apparent at a distance that there is a lack of vision and there isn't necessarily this thesis for society I'm talking about, or there isn't this growth mindset.  Well, I think we're going to end it there.  So Jagmeet Singh, thanks so much for coming in today.  Much appreciated.  Yeah, it was great.  Great chat.

JAGMEET SINGH

[00:51:51] All right, man.  We should chat like this more often.

MO DHALIWAL

[00:51:53] We should, right?  With microphones and a very formal setup.  It's great.  How natural is this?  It's very, it's very natural.  All right.  Thanks, man.  Thanks.  Well, hopefully we've given you a lot to think about.  That was High Agency.  Like and subscribe and we will see you next time.

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